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Why don't you go ask the Muslims that killed them?
Because the US government admits that 500.000 Iraqi children have died due to lack of food and medicine because of the economic sanctions. I had hoped that you would at least google it instead of just blaming muslims or other similar rubbish.
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Maybe you are forgetting the main cause. Saddam who used chemical weapons on his own people which "was as of 2008 the largest-scale chemical weapons attack directed against a civilian-populated area in history."
Look at the "controversies" part of your own link. The news we got around here was that the type of gas that killed the iraqi civilians was not the one that the americans had sold to the iraqis, it was the kind of gas the americans sold to Iran (cyanide vs mustard gas, IIRC).
And the largest-scale use of chemical weapons was the case of agent orange in Vietnam, where millions of gallons were dropped over civilians, resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths and birth defects.
But change the word "chemical" to "nuclear", and the US come right on top of the list yet again, isn't it? How many people have died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, both virgin targets without military importance?
Dude... here's a video for you about the nuclear hazard that depleted uranium munitions have made out of Iraq (and the video only covers the FIRST gulf war) and anywhere else they were used:
Maybe you are forgetting the main cause. Saddam who used chemical weapons on his own people
Oh that was the main cause ? AFAIK, that happened in 1988 when Sadam was still your close ally. The pentagon and CIA also blamed Iran for the attack, until it became politically more convenient to blame Saddam. Others have argued persuasively that the gassing was not intended to kill civilians.
Whatever happened there, do you know who gassed the Iraqi Kurds first? "I do not understand this sqeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes". Dixit Winston Churchill in 1920.
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Strange that P4Man stands on the side of Saddam. Why is this?
No, I stand on the side of the innocent Iraqi's. No question sadam was a brutal dictator, no one is sad to see him gone, but despite that, most Iraqi's where off pretty well compared to any other dictatorship in the world. Education, health care, literacy, personal well being, believe it or not, in 1989 the average Iraqi was among the most prosperous, healthy and most educated in the world. 20 yeas later, millions have died and Iraq is a third world country in anarchy. But hey, they can vote.
At least those that still live.
No, I stand on the side of the innocent Iraqi's. No question sadam was a brutal dictator, no one is sad to see him gone, but despite that, most Iraqi's where off pretty well compared to any other dictatorship in the world. Education, health care, literacy, personal well being, believe it or not, in 1989 the average Iraqi was among the most prosperous, healthy and most educated in the world. 20 yeas later, millions have died and Iraq is a third world country in anarchy. But hey, they can vote. At least those that still live.
I'm not sure how to get through to someone who is so uninformed and lack common sense. You claim 1.5 million Iraqis killed even though the real figure is more than an order of magnitude less.
You actually believe that the brutalized and terrorized Iraqis were better off under Saddam when there are mass graves filled with 400,000 people!? Torture and rape rooms you ignore. Somehow you can only focus on prosperity immediately after a war? Lets look at Europe after WWII. By your logic, Europe would have been better off under Hitler. The US and Russia destroyed prosperity when they fought the Nazis!
Your opinion mirrors the short sighted leftists in the US that will do anything to deny a Bush victory.
I'm not sure how to get through to someone who is so uninformed
Its easy enough to get through to someone misinformed, yet its impossible to get through to someone like you, blind to facts or science because it somehow doesnt match your ideology; 'noid. Someone still believing Iraq had WMDs and posed an "imminent threat to world peace" because Bush told you so, someone unable to believe the US tortured prisoners, many of them completely innocent, in Guantanamo and elsewhere ("3 meals a day") because Bush told you so . Someone unable to conceive US and western policies caused more despair, death and destruction than even the devil impersonated called Saddam, because Fox news shows you newly built schools in Iraq and women voting.
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and lack common sense. You claim 1.5 million Iraqis killed even though the real figure is more than an order of magnitude less.
I said over 20 years. Maybe you forgot the 500.000 dead children caused by the embargo, I assure you their parents have not. Furthermore, maybe you should have read your own link:
"The number is a minimum count of violent deaths... The Health Ministry has tallied death certificates since 2005, [ ..] but by early 2007, when sectarian violence was putting political pressure on the U.S. and Iraqi governments, the Iraqi numbers disappeared.. Authoritative statistics for 2003 and 2004 do not exist."
AP then tried to make their estimate based on media reports (!), which of course is a better source than WHO or other scientific studies since we all know journalists covered all of Iraq in 2003 and reported each and every casualty, right?
Lastly, you seem to think even the lowest possible estimate of 100.000 isnt all that much. Its 30x 9/11 'noid, for a country with less than 1/10th the US population. What do you think gives the US or anyone the right to determine such a death toll is warranted so iraqi's can vote?
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You actually believe that the brutalized and terrorized Iraqis were better off under Saddam when there are mass graves filled with 400,000 people!? Torture and rape rooms you ignore.
Its what the Iraqi's themselves seem to believe. 56% say the invasion was wrong, yet you say its right for them ? Mind you that poll doesnt include the opinion of the 1 million dead and 2 million refugees. Someone forgot to ask their opinion, but I think i can guess it.
Its easy enough to get through to someone misinformed, yet its impossible to get through to someone like you, blind to facts or science because it somehow doesnt match your ideology; 'noid.
You don't post any facts. Only unsupported propaganda. In contrast, when I post, I include the link that supports it.
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Someone still believing Iraq had WMDs and posed an "imminent threat to world peace" because Bush told you so,
I won't even go into all the dots pointing to Saddam and terror attacks on the US, or the attempted assassination of a US president. That was on a previous thread.
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someone unable to believe the US tortured prisoners,
Water boarding has been used by the US since WWII and was common during the Vietnam war. Bush did nothing different than his democrat predecessors who did not get harassed by leftists for doing the same thing, ie. Lyndon Johnson. US special forces still undergo Water boarding during training. So by your leftist logic, the US tortures its own military. Do you realize how insane you are? It is a gray area, but leftists will always insist that it is torture. Water boarding prevented a 911 style attack on the Los Angeles airport and saved many lives. If Obama or someone like you were president eight years ago, many people would have been killed. People like you are dangerous to have in power and put innocent people at risk.
What Bush says has nothing to do with it. Facts and reality do however.
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Someone unable to conceive US and western policies caused more despair, death and destruction than even the devil impersonated called Saddam, because Fox news shows you newly built schools in Iraq and women voting.
Wrong. Iraq is much less violent now and there are no more mass graves being filled with 400,000 people. Terrorist attacks are also down throughout the rest of the world.
Hopefully, you will educate yourself over time and stop listening to propaganda. The unionized media has a political axe grind, one day you will see this perhaps.
Thank you proving my point. You are indeed so dense you still believe those lies, even if the liars themselves have conceded being wrong. Like a 6 year old refusing to believe santa isn't real.
FYI, yellowcake is not a WMD. It can not be used for weapons, since its not enriched enough even to be used as nuclear fuel without processing. The existence of the yellowcake was fully known and it was under IAEA control. It was never part of the WMD claims to justify the iraq invasion. There is nothing secret about it (only the transport was kept secret until completed, duh).
As for those 2 republicans lunatics claim of "100"s of WMD's".. they where wrong. A few inoperative shells where found, remainders of the Iran Iraq war. Iraq Survey Group turned every rock in Iraq and found nothing. The reports are out there Noid. The PA has said the same, the Bush administration has admitted that much, but of course you still don't believe them, you still think they were right lol. You're also about the only person one dense enough to still believe Sadam had "links" with Al Qaeda terrorists, when its obvious the two where sworn enemies and when the very same people that fed you those lies now admit to that. Do i really need to dig up links for all that ?
As for waterboarding not being torture. You're nuts. Why don't you try it noid ? Have some friends waterboard you, and tell me how fun it is? Or let me, and I promise I will make you sign a petition for gay marriage, but I wouldn't be torturing you, would I? If Iran or North Korea uses this technique to "interrogate" a US captive by putting him in a coffin with insects for days, banging their heads against a wall and waterboarding them until they admit to spying for the US, will you tell me its ok and Iran is living up to Geneva conventions? I remember you protesting Iran showing US captives on tv for propaganda as a violation of Geneva conventions.
If the US indeed uses (or used) torture on their own special forces as part of a training, it doesnt make the practice any less torture. Neither does your claim US forces have been doing it since WW2. Japanese who were caught doing waterboarding on US prisoners where sentenced for torture and war crimes. enough said.
Oh, as for the effectiveness; there can be no doubt. It was proven ages ago by the Catholic church that through waterboarding got thousands of confessions of witches. So now we know witches did exist and waterboarding works. It worked better than drowning them, because I dont think that method proved any witches actually did float with a mill stone around their neck.
Oh and by the way; your name couldn't be more appropriate. You can't trust the free press (except for the Pravda sic), you can't trust the scientific community (it even sounds like communism, doesnt it ?) , you can't trust the government (well, actually you can and must, you only shouldn't believe them when they admit having been wrong, or when its a democrat administration), you certainly can't trust any supra national institution like the WHO or IAEA. Who can you trust 'noid? Its all one big communist-Islam conspiracy isn't ?
Thank you proving my point. You are indeed so dense you still believe those lies, even if the liars themselves have conceded being wrong. Like a 6 year old refusing to believe santa isn't real.
What lies? Again you use generalities. Nothing I posted was a lie. Look at the links yourself. 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent is not enough for you? Also, Bush is not the one who declared that Iraq had WMDs. The UN and the democrat head of the CIA, "Slam Dunk" Tenet.
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You're also about the only person one dense enough to still believe Sadam had "links" with Al Qaeda terrorists
Yes OSAMA BIN LADEN and Saddam Hussein had an operational relationship from the early 1990s to 2003 that involved training in explosives and weapons of mass destruction, logistical support for terrorist attacks, al Qaeda training camps and safe haven in Iraq, and Iraqi financial support for al Qaeda--perhaps even for Mohamed Atta--according to a top secret U.S. government memorandum obtained by THE WEEKLY STANDARD. http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... omFont=YES
I will also point out the downing of TWA flight 800 was on July 17th, the date that the Bath party took over Iraq. Also, the first wold trade center bombing was performed by a relative of the 911 mastermind, and they had had Iraqi passports. All circumstantial of course. But it all points in one direction. Of course you avoided the attempted assassination of a US president. No big deal right?
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As for waterboarding not being torture. You're nuts. Why don't you try it noid ? Have some friends waterboard you, and tell me how fun it is?
I know someone who had it done to them during special forces training. So I'm nuts if I don't believe that he was tortured by our own government. Sorry, your nuts.
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Oh, as for the effectiveness; there can be no doubt. It was proven ages ago by the Catholic church that through waterboarding got thousands of confessions of witches. So now we know witches did exist and waterboarding works.
Yet it saved perhaps thousands of people's lives in LA when water boarding prevented a terrorist attack. You avoid what is important again, saving lives. The interrogations also include slapping. Is that torture too? Imagine all the Hollywood movies that have slapping. Lets here your dangerous nut viewpoint.
Yes OSAMA BIN LADEN and Saddam Hussein had an operational relationship from the early 1990s to 2003 that involved training in explosives and weapons of mass destruction, logistical support for terrorist attacks, al Qaeda training camps and safe haven in Iraq, and Iraqi financial support for al Qaeda--perhaps even for Mohamed Atta--according to a top secret U.S. government memorandum obtained by THE WEEKLY STANDARD. http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... omFont=YES
Yes 'noid. In 2003 the US press still printed such nonsense. No credible proof was ever presented, and when the 9/11 commission investigated, they found nothing - though they did their best to word it diplomatically: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Jun16.html
Not that it would take a commission to discover that a secular dictator, a former US puppet who fought muslim extremists in his own country, the only gulf state leader to abolish the Sharia, give high level education and government position to women, that he would not be a very likely ally of a fundamentalist Wahabi like Bin Laden.
lastly, if any non existing relationship between Sadam and Bin Laden would justify an invasion, how come you are so friendly with the Saudi's who bankroll him ?
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I will also point out the downing of TWA flight 800 was on July 17th, the date that the Bath party took over Iraq. Also, the first wold trade center bombing was performed by a relative of the 911 mastermind, and they had had Iraqi passports. All circumstantial of course. But it all points in one direction.
yeah.. it all points to meaninglessness.
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Of course you avoided the attempted assassination of a US president. No big deal right?
That said, didn't the US try to kill Sadam? How many other heads of state has the US eliminated or helped eliminate in the last century you think ?
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I know someone who had it done to them during special forces training. So I'm nuts if I don't believe that he was tortured by our own government.
What a great argument 'noid. So again, you'd be fine if Iran or NK did it on US captives, right ? After which they sign some confession and they get executed as spies. No big deal, right? just poring a bit a water in their lounges. Perhaps the US police should start using when interrogating suspects ? If its no torture, then why not ?
Its torture plain and simple and the fact you can't even acknowledge that speaks volumes.
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Yet it saved perhaps thousands of people's lives in LA when water boarding prevented a terrorist attack.
No noid, as far as we know, it achieved didly squat. Sheik whatever his name cooperated nicely before being waterboarded 183 times, but when he had said all he knew and wouldn't confirm the links with Sadam the US government so badly wanted to prove, they started waterboarding him.
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The interrogations also include slapping. Is that torture too? Imagine all the Hollywood movies that have slapping. Lets here your dangerous nut viewpoint.
If its voluntarily its never torture. But slapping someone often and hard enough would certainly constitute torture, yes. Walking in the rain is no torture, but having water droplets fall on you for a long time is torture. Its called Chinese water torture.
he would not be a very likely ally of a fundamentalist Wahabi like Bin Laden.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
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lastly, if any non existing relationship between Sadam and Bin Laden would justify an invasion, how come you are so friendly with the Saudi's who bankroll him ?
Yes, it is hypocrisy. Yet, Obama does a full bow to the Saudi king.
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yeah.. it all points to meaninglessness.
Not meaningless. It does not prove anything but it is circumstantial evidence and there is a lot of it.
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So again, you'd be fine if Iran or NK did it on US captives, right ?
You think they haven't?! They have done far worse.
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Its torture plain and simple and the fact you can't even acknowledge that speaks volumes.
To you and your effeminate liberals, it is torture. If waterboarding is torture than that means that the US tortures its own troops during training. How idiotic. People on the left have such poor judgment that endangers us all. To many people water boarding is just a necessary interrogation tool has saved countless innocent people's lives. If discomfort is torture than putting handcuffs on someone is torture. Maybe locking people up in a prison cell is torture too then. Where is the line drawn? If your family lived in an area that was going to have a major terrorist attack, would you let them die even if water boarding could prevent the attack? Could you be that fucked up? Al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed should not have been water boarded? Let thousands of people in LA die?
I know waterboarding is torture - because I did it myself
As a former master instructor and chief of training at the U.S. Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, I know the waterboard personally and intimately. Our staff was required to undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception.
Having been subjected to this technique, I can say: It is risky but not entirely dangerous when applied in training for a very short period. However, when performed on an unsuspecting prisoner, waterboarding is a torture technique - without a doubt. There is no way to sugarcoat it.
In the media, waterboarding is called "simulated drowning," but that's a misnomer. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning.
Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.
How much of this the victim is to endure depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim's face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs that show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.
Waterboarding is slow-motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of blackout and expiration. Usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch. If it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia - meaning, the loss of all oxygen to the cells.
The lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threatened with its use again and again. Call it "Chinese water torture," "the barrel," or "the waterfall." It is all the same.
One has to overcome basic human decency to endure causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you questioning the meaning of what it is to be an American.
Is there a place for the waterboard? Yes. It must go back to the realm of training our operatives, soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines - to prepare for its uncontrolled use by our future enemies. Brutal interrogation, flash murder and extreme humiliation of Americans may now be guaranteed because we have mindlessly, but happily, broken the seal on the Pandora's box of indignity, cruelty and hatred in the name ofprotecting America.
Torture advocates hide behind the argument that an open discussion about specific American interrogation techniques will aid the enemy. Yet convicted Al Qaeda members and innocent captives who were released to their host nations have already debriefed the world through hundreds of interviews, movies and documentaries on exactly what methods they were subjected to and how they endured.
Our own missteps have already created a cadre of highly experienced lecturers for Al Qaeda's own virtual school for terrorists.
I agree with Sen. John McCain. Waterboarding should never be used as an interrogation tool. It is beneath our values.
Having been subjected to this technique, I can say: It is risky but not entirely dangerous when applied in training for a very short period. However, when performed on an unsuspecting prisoner, waterboarding is a torture technique - without a doubt. There is no way to sugarcoat it.
If it is torture, it is a mild temporary one that has saved thousands of lives. We are not talking about breaking arms here either. Nobody likes to waterboard people, but if it saves lives then it should be used. There is no doubt that it has saved thousands of lives. You avoid this critical point. If Obama was president eight years ago instead of Bush, thousands of innocent people in LA would now be dead.
You also refused to answer my previous question about saving your own family if waterboarding could used to prevent a major attack on them. Why don't you answer that? Would you sacrifice your own family for sake of your principles?
Also, don't forgot that waterboarding is only torture when Bush allows it. When previous Democrat presidents allowed waterboarding, it was justified and saved many lives and was not torture.
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Brutal interrogation, flash murder and extreme humiliation of Americans may now be guaranteed because we have mindlessly, but happily, broken the seal on the Pandora's box of indignity, cruelty and hatred in the name ofprotecting America.
This is the same flawed logic that left wing morons said about the war in Iraq causing an increase in terrorism. Oh, we better not make them mad! Give me a break. Terrorism is down significantly throughout the world, and there has not been a terrorist attack in the US since 911 thanks to waterboarding.
So now you seem to finally admit the US does torture, you're just trying to justify it. There a few problems with this paranoid;
1. It is illegal according to international law and geneva conventions. If you think torture should be legal, you should withdraw from these conventions (and expose your own military to the consequences)
2. It was also used on completely innocent cab drivers and farmers
3. It doesn't work. It works just fine if you want to extract bogus confessions, it does not work to extract information. You watch too much Foxnews and 24.
You can keep claiming it saved "thousands of lives" (no doubt Sadam or Kim Jong Il would use the same argument), but there is not a shred of evidence for this. Neither is there any evidence the same (or better) intelligence would not have been obtained through other means. Most intelligence people seem to agree torture simply doesn't work.
Moreover, you have used the Sadam torture chambers a gazillion times as a justification for invading Iraq. Can you really not see how hypocritical you are by justifying torture by your own country now? Do you think the world doesn't see this, see how Sadam was removed, and now its just another US puppet regime and the US themselves doing the torture?
How is the US going to weigh in on the Iraqi government to stop these practices when they use them themselves?
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You also refused to answer my previous question about saving your own family if waterboarding could used to prevent a major attack on them
I dont have to answer to false dilemma's. Waterboarding has not prevented any attacks, what it has done, is put all your military buddies in jeopardy in the next regular military conflict, it has fed anti US feelings across the world, empowering the extremists and thereby causing more US casualties in the long run. But if you like false dilemma's, then do tell me if you think waterboarding should be used by the police on US citizens to get confessions of crime suspects. If its not such a terrible thing in your view, and it works so well, it would surely save hundreds or thousands of crime victims each year by getting these criminals to talk, no? There is over 15.000 homicides in the US each year, 80.000 rapes. Sure sounds like a bigger threat than terrorism to me.
BTW, what I don't get, is that of all people, its mostly (although by no means only) right wing conservatives preaching this. You people should be defending personal liberties and the constitution. Not allowing a few cave men to turn the US in to a police state, where homeland security has the same powers the Stazi once had. You rave against "unconstitutional" gay marriage, but at the same time allow the president to assume dictatorial powers for anything he deems to be an emergency. Allow indefinite detention without charges, warrantless wiretapping, and now even torture. All the US government has to do is use the keyword "terrorist" and suddenly you have about the same rights as a former DDR or North Korean citizen. Throughout history terrorism has been used by governments as the perfect excuse to take away civil liberties and turn towards totalitarianism. Are people really so dumb to let it happen again and again?
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