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 Post subject: Surprising details of Nehalem implementation
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:37 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:55 pm
Posts: 829
Location: Great white north
From here:

http://intel.wingateweb.com/US08/publis ... 1_100t.pdf

- each core's power supply is independently and fully gated, cores can
be fully powered down to 0V
- uses 8T SRAM cell instead of traditional 6T, allows reliable operation
and good yield at low voltage
- EDC logic has triple detect/double correct capability
- uses entirely static logic in its data paths instead of domino dynamic
logic


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 Post subject: Re: Surprising details of Nehalem implementation
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:39 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:10 pm
Posts: 224
Questions, will appreciate if someone could answer:
Paul DeMone wrote:
- each core's power supply is independently and fully gated, cores can
be fully powered down to 0V

It's, each core operating at a different voltage like Turion Ultra or a same domain for all cores and some cores may be turned off?

And about the memory controler:
- It's 3 DIMM per channel with UDIMMs or RDIMMs? How much with UDIMMs? Quad rank, but how much ranks per channel?
- How memory interleaving is implemented?


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 Post subject: Re: Surprising details of Nehalem implementation
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:41 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:38 pm
Posts: 479
EduardoS wrote:
Questions, will appreciate if someone could answer:
Paul DeMone wrote:
- each core's power supply is independently and fully gated, cores can
be fully powered down to 0V

It's, each core operating at a different voltage like Turion Ultra or a same domain for all cores and some cores may be turned off?

And about the memory controler:
- It's 3 DIMM per channel with UDIMMs or RDIMMs? How much with UDIMMs? Quad rank, but how much ranks per channel?
- How memory interleaving is implemented?


PDF says: "Enables idle cores to go to ~0 power (C6), independent of state of other cores on die". Since a C6 state includes lowering the voltage, this suggests that each core can operate at different voltage.

About the memory, I would guess it's 3 RDIMMs per channel. 3 UDIMMs seems to be too much.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:31 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:55 pm
Posts: 357
Is the power microcontroller the son of Foxton?


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 Post subject: Re: Surprising details of Nehalem implementation
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:40 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:08 pm
Posts: 217
Location: Switzerland
EduardoS wrote:
same domain for all cores and some cores may be turned off


it looks like this for C6 here (see p.62 - 113 for power management):
http://intel.wingateweb.com/US08/publis ... 1_100s.pdf

moreover "turbo mode" is documented as changing only the frequency + their new special switch using a thick metal layer 9 looks much like an on/off switch, please correct me if I'm wrong

[edit] there is clearly a single Vcc for all cores, see p.64 of the above link


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:14 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:55 pm
Posts: 357
Quote:
[edit] there is clearly a single Vcc for all cores, see p.64 of the above link


One VCC but a per core power gate (p. 87).

Is this worse than indep VCC since one core in C0 means everythign that isn't in C6 has to recieve the same VCC?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:17 am 
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Posts: 217
Location: Switzerland
TacoBell wrote:
Quote:
[edit] there is clearly a single Vcc for all cores, see p.64 of the above link


One VCC but a per core power gate (p. 87)


sure, that's the "some cores may be turned off" part


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:05 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:53 am
Posts: 214
Does the OS have to be aware of the abilities to lower/raise voltage to each core and the on/off states or is it automatic only in firmware? I saw that firmware can control it but it doesn't necessarily say the firmware is OS agnostic.

Is this design using a flexible clock multiplier? It would make sense it changes the clock speed on each core rather than the fsb, otherwise you'd have asynchronous fsb's to the cores.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:55 pm
Posts: 829
Location: Great white north
TacoBell wrote:
Is the power microcontroller the son of Foxton?


Same basic idea, use an embedded controller for greater flexibility.

The other elements of dynamic power management in Nehalem appear
closer in nature to the digital based scheme in Tukwila rather than the
analog based Foxton scheme in Montecito.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:28 pm
Posts: 261
MadRat wrote:
Does the OS have to be aware of the abilities to lower/raise voltage to each core and the on/off states or is it automatic only in firmware?


Since the ability to lower/raise voltage is normally linked to clock frequency (you can't lower the voltage a lot if the core operates at full speed), I suppose the OS has to be aware of it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:50 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:06 am
Posts: 259
Everything that was said pointed to the same voltage on every core. It is all the same or off.

-Charlie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:38 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:55 pm
Posts: 829
Location: Great white north
Groo wrote:
Everything that was said pointed to the same voltage on every core. It is all the same or off.

-Charlie


The very existence of the huge pass transistor for each core does
open some tantalyzing opportunities for the future.

Consider a core at full speed operation at say 1.2V external core
supply voltage, drawing 20A through the pass transistor with a
50 mV drop. The pass transistor dissipates 1W and the core
dissipates 23W at 1.15V

Now say you add circuitry to implement a linear power regulator
for each core using the pass transistor as the switch. What's the
point you might ask? Won't you simply shift power dissipation
from the core to the pass transistor?

Yes but it isn't a linear, Watt for Watt transfer. Consider running
the core at reduced voltage and frequency, say 0.8V. The pass
transistor has to drop the external supply voltage by 400 mV
but the current isn't 20A any more because the core's power
draw falls roughly as the cube of supply voltage when frequency
is scaled too. From 1.15V to 0.8V implies core power drops to
around 8W or 10A draw. The pass transistor burns 4W doing
its regulator thing but the total core+pass transistor power
draw has fallen from 24W to 12W. Had you simply kept the
core at 1.15V and reduced frequency 30% the total power
draw would be 17W. The linear regulator *saves* 5W when
running the core at reduced frequency. The beauty of this
scheme is it is fully scalable because you still only need one
external VRM to power the device no matter how many cores
it had.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:02 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:06 am
Posts: 259
I have no doubt that Intel is doing things right. If I know a lot more about the scheme than I am saying, I could not talk about it for a bit though. :)

-Charlie


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:47 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:25 pm
Posts: 200
Nehalem is looking pretty good. It's a complete clone of what AMD has been shipping for 5 years (AMD64 instruction set, crossbar interconnect set on die, memory controllers on die) but on a process that looks like it's a year further along.

It remains to be seen how long it will take them to complete the validation of the platform, and I'm not sure what AMD will have available by the time Intel gets their Nehalem act together, but if they can get something stable, I'll have to take a long look at it - and I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that way.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:25 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:01 am
Posts: 652
AtWork wrote:
Nehalem is looking pretty good. It's a complete clone of what AMD has been shipping for 5 years (AMD64 instruction set, crossbar interconnect set on die, memory controllers on die) but on a process that looks like it's a year further along.

It remains to be seen how long it will take them to complete the validation of the platform, and I'm not sure what AMD will have available by the time Intel gets their Nehalem act together, but if they can get something stable, I'll have to take a long look at it - and I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that way.


You always forget to say that the pipeline of Core 2 and Core i7 is much larger than whatever AMD has, with macrofusion, it goes up to 66% wider.

for the instruction set 64bits, it is a big waste of decoding bandwidth, the funny part is that AMD is victime of their "extra byte" since their decoding is much smaller than Core 2 .. it does mean less out of order opportunity for them. I am not even speaking about the short and long pointers in x64 ... Now that macrofusion is ON in Intel64, i think we are going to have fun on 64bits mode.

If I was AMD, i will try to stay as long as I can on 32bits mode.

I guess, we all copied the memory controler architecture of the 386SX if we follow your thinking...

take it easy

who?


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